I suggest you ...

Make NATIVE IDE for native developers, MANAGED IDE for managed developers

I think that only fair thing to do is to split VS and actually make VS for C++ developers written in C++ and VS for managed developers could be then written in managed.

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    Knowing me, knowing you, a-haKnowing me, knowing you, a-ha shared this idea  ·   ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →

    59 comments

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      • David ColeDavid Cole commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        Examples of other areas where I think attempts to cover both native code development and managed code development in the same IDE have been very problematic: Intellisense (no Intellisense for C++/CLI, a major pain), debugging (mixed-mode debugging is super-slow), documentation (I've lost count of how many times I search for something from the native code world, but the link I am looking for gets drown in all the noise from the managed code world, I'd really appreciate less emphasis on .NET in the documentation), etc.

      • David ColeDavid Cole commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        Rob, I think the gist of the suggestion is to center on native code development and redo the IDE for that in native code as well. You'd still be able to develop in managed code, just as you can, say, dump managed objects in WinDbg, but that would be just another extension of the IDE, on par with, say, a similar extension for JavaScript V8, rather than something built right into the core of the IDE like it is now. I think this is a good idea. I think attempts to marry native code development with managed code development that we have seen so far in Visual Studio have largely failed, most visibly on the performance front, but also on several other fronts.

      • Rob ProuseRob Prouse commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        -1 Bad idea, I have several projects that are a mix of native code and managed code. For example, a low level legacy native layer with a new .NET UI. I don't want to maintain multiple versions of the IDE to develop one solution.

      • Sergey DenisovSergey Denisov commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        -1, split visual studio for .NET & Native developers will lead to problems. Updates and new version will so different in func. components

      • Ondrej SvačinaOndrej Svačina commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        -3. The way to go is to improve and optimize the existing managed code and to further optimize CLR, JIT and other .NET components and not to fragment developer forces in two incompatible IDEs.

      • EugeneEugene commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        I do care about performance more than about implementation as well. I think that moving from C# to C++ will help improve performance though. From my experience, performance is the single most important respect in which managed code fails to deliver. Hence, +3.

      • Konstantin TenzinKonstantin Tenzin commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        -1. I care about performance, but not the implementation . If performance and functionality will be ok, let it be written in Brainfuck.

      • Arman StepanyanArman Stepanyan commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        No, we are need only managed code, so in the future could easily migrate to another platform.
        No native code.

      • Knowing me, knowing you, a-haKnowing me, knowing you, a-ha commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Guillaume I personally believe that there are phisical barriers which are impossible to overcome with .NET and which are easy to overcome with native code.
        And I do believe that there will not be great performance improvement in next release of Very Slow.
        Will see few months from now.

      • GuillaumeGuillaume commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Knowing me, knowing you, a-ha

        I think I understand that under certain circumstance or scenario, there is a performance problem with the VS2010 IDE and C++ projects.

        But I do not understand why the solution should be to revert to a native IDE. In my point of view, the solution is to solve the performance problem on the current IDE.

        A dedicated c++ IDE would add a segmentation in the Visual Studio toolsuite, and we will loose the capacity to open project containing native and managed projects.

        Concerning you PS : I was meaning that VS 2010 is a great IDE for native c++, the new features are helpful and improve a lot my produtivity ;)

      • Knowing me, knowing you, a-haKnowing me, knowing you, a-ha commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Guillaume, I’m also not an english speaker so I certainly understand.
        Unfortunately I dissagree with you, in every other aspect. If you read my response to sbi you’ll understand why I think having IDE written in a language one actually uses is important, and if you read responses of other people from here: http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/suggestions/2059755-move-forward-and-bring-back-vs-ui-written-in-nativ you will see that there are very good arguments for bringing (or making separate) IDE for native developers.
        And as for you and not seeing noticable difference in performance between 2008 and 2010? I suppose you just a lucky one.
        Thanks.
        P.S. I still don’t quite understand what you’ve meant by this ;) :
        I meant that the Visual Studio 2010 software is a clever IDE to write native code.

      • GuillaumeGuillaume commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Knowing me, knowing you, a-ha I removed my post because It seems that my sentence told the the contrary of what I wanted to say (I am not native english writter ), so the better thing to do was to delete it.

        I meant that the Visual Studio 2010 software is a clever IDE to write native code.
        Obviously, I was not talking about the Visual Studio team which is full of great talents ! ;)

        I think the 'revert to native' is a non-sense because the technology used to write the IDE is not related with the technology you are writting code for.

        I write native code with VS2008 and VS2010 and I do not see any noticeable difference in term of performance of the IDE.

        I understand that some people may have a different experience, and want to improve the IDE performance, but are this really related to the technology it relies on ? I think there is some confusion.

        For example, some people here are talking about C++/CLI which is not related to the technology used to write the IDE. This is a different topic.

      • Knowing me, knowing you, a-haKnowing me, knowing you, a-ha commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Guillaume do you mean VS Team? I think that they have pretty smart guys there, and I believe that they are able to write pretty impressive native code.
        And would you mind and specify why "All those ‘revert to native’ are non-senses."?

      • David ColeDavid Cole commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        To clarify, my last sentence is intended for the part of the VS team responsible for C++. I have no problems with .NET, it's a fine technology, and if Microsoft wants to move it forward, great. That said, for a C++ developer, .NET is just another technology in the long list of technologies to use. Yet the absolute most of the changes to Visual C++ in the past 5 to 8 years had to do with .NET, and this is, frankly, a shame.

      • David ColeDavid Cole commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        +3 as well. I had to move votes from a different suggestion which is also important to me, but the performance of VS2010 is so terrible and such a pain, I am willing to spend all my votes on suggestions which ask for improvements in this area.

        I also have to admit I am a bit tired of the .NET stuff which just never fully delivers for a C++ developer. We've had not one but two attempts at integrating .NET with C++. Both ended half-baked. For example, the latest attempt, C++/CLI, leaves you with no Intellisense (C# guys have this, you don't), dumb parsing problems (try creating a managed class with a property whose name is the same as that class, C# guys can do this, you can't), very poor performance of the debugger (once again, C# guys laugh at you as they don't have to suffer debugging in 'mixed mode' which is just super-slow), no multitargeting (right, C++/CLI is meant to be the ultimate language for interop, but, yes, C# guys can target .NET 3.5 and you can't), etc.

        Please finish what you started with C++/CLI and stop throwing resources at .NET. It isn't worth it.

      • FrislFrisl commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        Love it! There are huge differences between managed and native development and it would be awesome to get products tailored to our specific needs.

        Let's hope many developers will vote for this :)

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