I suggest you ...

Support a .NET 4.0 Service Pack on Windows XP Supporting those .NET 4.0 Bugs Fixed in .NET 4.5

This idea is in contrast to http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/suggestions/2723735-make-net-4-5-work-on-any-os-that-supports-4-0 and http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/suggestions/3116039-support-xp-for-4-5-until-the-end-of-xp-support-, which I do not support. It is parallel to http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/suggestions/3095632-make-vs2012-not-hide-net-4-0-bugs-when-targeting-, but I think is the converse of it.

Consider a developer who must support customers running Windows XP, and who also is unable or unwilling to debug their applications on a machine separate from their main development machine. Such a developer may feel that he cannot upgrade to Visual Studio 2012, since that installation would replace the .NET 4.0 assemblies on the developer machine, making it impossible for the developer to encounter the fixed .NET 4.0 bugs.

Unfortunately, it is not impossible for their customers to encounter the fixed bugs!

Microsoft should make available a service pack for Windows XP and all other operating system versions which currently support .NET 4.0. This service pack should fix all of the bugs currently fixed in .NET 4.5.

Furthermore, as Microsoft produces service packs for .NET 4.5, there should be a corresponding service pack for .NET 4.0 systems, again targeting those .NET 4.0 bugs fixed by the service pack.

Some of the developers who are unwilling to upgrade to Visual Studio 2012 may be willing to do so if they can require their customers to install a service pack.

This may mitigate some of the ill will and confusion caused by the in-place upgrade of .NET 4.0 by .NET 4.5.

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    John SaundersJohn Saunders shared this idea  ·   ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →

    38 comments

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      • HMan2828HMan2828 commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        I just don't see how this will ever happen, since Windows XP is no longer a supported platform.

      • Reinhard OstermeierReinhard Ostermeier commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Dudica: I don't know Megan Winters posts, but I think it does not help a lot putting a comment like yours to threads of a total different topic. It's quite likely none of the followers of this thread knows her posts, and by this can not agree or disagree with you.

      • Dudica Dudica commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        I am disgusted by the banning of Megan Winter's account on social.msdn.microsoft.com. She came with valid points for Visual Basic 6.0, too valid! And what the administrators do on a MICROSOFT site?! they erased the 60-70 valid comments (on "Bring back Visual Basic 6.0 ! We all need it." issue) and banned the acount due to their inability to cope with the conversation! This is a disgrace for Microsoft! The admin that banned a perfect valid user like Megan Winter should not have access to that site !

      • HManHMan commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        Do you actually need any of the new features of .NET 4.5? If not why target it at all? Just keep targetting .NET 4.0 and install all updates from Microsoft Update on the target system.

        Besides, why would you, a company developing cutting edge technological solutions, have to bother about broke people who can't even afford Windows Serve 2008? Do you think they will be able to pay you?

        You could just branch your product when switching to .NET 4.5, and offer the old version for those broke customers.

        There are a thousand things you or your customer can do before MS even has to get involved.

      • asdfasdf commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        This is sort of criminal. They are forcing bugs onto users of older OS's which forces them to upgrade. --------I DO NOT SEE THAT BEHAVIOR IN ANY VERSION OF LINUX... HMM MAYBE I WILL UPGRADE

      • Anonymous commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        i actually read lately that alot of foriegn countrys and buisness still use xp and a considerable amount of regular people are as well and so do i so ill throw my points at this
        since i cant throw them ALL at gpu for #net or xna 5

      • onitonit commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        I agree. Microsoft should make a service pack for Windows XP SP3!

      • Reinhard OstermeierReinhard Ostermeier commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @John Saunders. I think the problems you can expect are not the big issue, because you can take care of them already at coding time. The big problem are the issues you do not expect. Even that you can find them in advance by doing extra testing on XP/2003, you then need to work around them which is extra work. As far as I know MS did not even release a full list of fixed bugs, so we have no chance to avoid all/most problems in advance.

      • JamesJames commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        No i mean that there are bugs present in .NET 4.0 that are fixed in 4.5 yet i can't use 4.5 to resolve those issues because my clients (infact several clients') production environments are on Server 2003. My comment specifically pertains to ASP.NET websites/applications and has nothing to do with debugging.

      • John SaundersJohn Saunders commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @James, just to be certain we understand you, do you expect to have problems if you use Visual Studio 2012 to develop ASP.NET 4.0 applications which will run on Windows Server 2003? Can you say what problems you expect?

        The lack of a service pack more strongly affects those who can't test and debug their application in the target environment. Are you unable to test on Windows Server 2003?

      • JamesJames commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        This is also an issue for ASP.NET websites running on Windows Server 2003. Yes, we all know users should now be running Server 2008 however in the real world budgetary and time constraints mean this isn't possible, particularly for large enteprise level customers or government departments.

      • Reinhard OstermeierReinhard Ostermeier commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @John Saunders: It's not that I can't do that. In fact this would be an absolutly possible method. But I want to avoid this additional step if possible. The reason for this is that in our special situation we have to create several extreme stable releases per month. Of course not all modules will be updated on every release, but it's a lot of testing to do. So it would be a one time job for MS to create and release a .Net 4.0 SP1 for XP. But if I use VS2012 without having this SP1 available I have to do a lot of additional testing and debugging without a locally installed VS.
        You can call it lacyness. But staying with VS 2010 as long as XP does not get the bugfixes is the way we will go then. In fact we have decided to stop official support for XP the same day as MS does it, which will be Octover 2014.

      • John SaundersJohn Saunders commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Reinhard Ostermeier: I believe I understand your concern, but I don't understand why you can't use VS2012 to build .NET 4.0 applications, then deploy the application to the Windows XP machine which has the special hardware installed on it.

      • Reinhard OstermeierReinhard Ostermeier commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Alovchin:
        We currently use VS2010 and most likely we will not switch to VS 2012 before XP runs out at our most important customers.
        It's just a pitty that we have to use 2010 if we could use 2012 for free (we have a subscription).
        If it comes to testing it's not only the OS issue that would cause double testing (which would make sens in a VM). We need to use special harware, which we have in most cases only one time. This hardware does not always allow to run in a VM. Also maintaing two OS on that hardware is work that has to be done. Additionally we have to use Delphi for historical reasons in parallel (it's impossible to port all the software at once). But Delphi has a limited number of installations. You can install it 5 times only, then you need to contact Embarcadero and let them reset it (so far they did this).
        I could continue that list of things to do if we need to test everithing twice. Therfore I hope MS will make a ServicePack for .Net 4.0 on XP. If not, I have to wait 2 more years (VS2014 will be out then).
        As already mentioned, thats a pitty, because also VS2010 has some bugs which are fixed in 2012 and will never be fixed in 2010 (like the long delay when switching from WPF Designer to a code editor (or similar).

      • AlovchinAlovchin commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Reinhard Ostermeier:
        Okay, I understand that. I'm just working in a company where WE tell customers which enviroment our software requires, so I'm far away from that problems. Still I suggest you to use older versions of products.
        Let's have a look. I don't think that you started developing just when VS2012 came out. So I think you have at least VS2010 license, right? Okay then. As I remember, you can install Visual Studio 2010 on Windows XP, and still VS2010 license doesn't set any restrictions on the count of machines where you can install and run it (at least MSDN license doesn't).
        Next step. If you can install VS2012, then you're running Windows 7, right? I don't think that your company have licensed Starter/Home Basic/Home Premium editions for developers. That means you can install Windows XP Mode and it won't cost you a penny as it's license is included in W7 Professional/Ultimate/Enterprise license.
        Now let's have a look on what we have.
        1. You have licensed Visual Studio 2010.
        2. You have licensed Windows 7 Professional/Ultimate/Enterprise.
        That means:
        1. You can download and install Windows XP Mode.
        2. You can install Visual Studio 2010 in Windows XP Mode.
        3. You can run and debug your apps that target .NET 4.0 there.
        It won't cost you anything but 2 hours of your time to do this, maybe even less. Still you're not forced to install .NET 4.5 and VS2012 at all.
        WAIDW?

      • Reinhard OstermeierReinhard Ostermeier commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Alovchin: Unfortuenately it is not my decission to support XP. It's our customers decission. In production environments it's quite common to use older OS very long. You might even find system with NT out there. A Upgrade of a production system costs way more than just a Windows license and eventually a new PC. 5000 to 10000 Euro per system are not unusual. And usually you need to update one by one in production free time (weekends) to make sure production runs smooth.
        So finally: we have to support XP for a while (at least two more years). No one would pay for testing everything 2 times (on .NET 4.5 and XP with .NET4.0)
        At least my boss allows me to write emails to our customers where we announce to end XP support at the same time as MS (October 2014).

      • AlovchinAlovchin commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        409 votes since 2nd of September (with my 3)... Guys, XP must die. If you want to develop for XP, then just don't update to VS2012 and .NET 4.5. It's so little of you that Microsoft won't even notice.

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