Create a Ubiquitous .NET Client Application Development Model
This vote is for developers who wish to see the idea of a ubiquitous .NET client application development model created by Microsoft and the Visual Studio team.
A ubiquitous .NET client application development model is a model that is defined in .NET-based technologies and is able to run in a multitude of runtime environments -- both native-compiled (store-hosted) and web-hosted.
A *very* rough image of the vision can be found here:
The goal is to enable *one* .NET Client Application Project to build deliverables for the following platforms:
1) Windows 10
2) Legacy Windows
3) *nix (Unix/Linux)
8) ??? (Extendible to different, future platforms)
In order to achieve the above, a ubiquitous .NET client application development model should strive to possess the following qualities:
1) Native Cross-Platform Capable - For native-compiled/store-hosted scenarios (iOS/Droid/Windows Store)
3) Consistent User Experience - For brand recognition, reinforcement, and optimal usability across all known scenarios
4) Cross-Boundary Accessibility - For shared code/assemblies between server and client boundaries
5) Xaml-Powered - Harnessing one of the greatest inventions in Microsoft's great history
6) Object Serialization Congruence - Markup used to describe serialized objects is what is created in memory
7) Holistic Development Consistency - The same guidelines and conventions are used in both client and server scenarios
For more information around this idea and the qualities above, a series of articles has been created to discuss the notion of a ubiquitous .NET client application development model at length. You can view that series here:
Finally, this is intended to be a starting point for discussion, and not a final solution. THAT is meant for the experts there at Microsoft. :) Thank you for any support, dialogue, and feedback around this idea!
- Does not require store apps for Windows or Mac
- Object serialized on one platform can be deserialized on any other platform without extra work or loss of floating point number or integer number precision
- Development tools, libraries, packaging, etc should be runnable and able to build production applications without accesssing a third party store, web service, etc. This is needed for any realistic long term support policy. I should be able to rebuild and redeploy a product 5+ years in the future after its first release.
Software escrow is an important part of large scale commercial software enterprise solutions.
Reliance on 25 different third party or second/third tier MS libraries is a failure risk 2+ years after the first production release.
A $1+ million budgeted project with a lifespan of 7+ years for corporate document retention requirements is unlikely to include any short-lived, 2-3 year, components.
As said elsewhere, 2 to 3 developers, a github repository, message base and few random blog posts does not make for a reliable and long lived component.
EwE dev team commented
Yes, this would be fantastic to see happen
I think it's ok. We don't need it anymore ;)
Right now I'm doing a BIG project in JS/Razor/C#/Html/CSS/Jquery/Ajax and everything else and I had to forfeit with their old Telerik RadGridView and go with CARDS instead. No more fency rows with cell colors, filters, aggregates and validation made easy. That time is the past. Now it's CARDS and simple
For those of you all into Telerik: https://www.telerik.com/platform-next-level
btw, manifold.js has become Progressive Web Apps builder - http://docs.pwabuilder.com/
Erik D commented
This idea is possible with current Visual Studio.
I use a custom Web MVC framework in combination with ASP.NET Webforms (pure for clean lay-out, don't use viewstates etc).
I can deploy to Native App trough Trigger.IO or PhoneGap (Windows, Android, IOS).
The server sends textual information – not graphics, I am using standard http requests and exposed to any known hole, I am using a unique token (similar to the ASP.NET session id mechanism), some of my customers installed it under https protocol for better safety.
I built it as add-on to VS and am using VS+C# for development and debugging.
In the beginning I used native run time environments.
It took me a while to develop a steady and fast HTML run time that works in all major browsers; for now all my desktop clients are using it. The main trick was building a generic ASP.NET site that helps the JS with the heavy staff.
I am not sure I understood the question about copy and paste text.
There are many more issues I had to deal with; I think it worth a face to face meeting, demonstration and explanation.
@Yoram Bucks can you tell us what you will do about security which any fake graphic sent from the server to the client would be as real as anything else ? What a big change just to make sure we can copy and paste texts, having a debugger tool for that and finally all this has a huge cost in regards to browser implementation of that change.
No doubt that designing with tag/XML language and adding handlers with code is the most popular way of developing a front-end.
JS is bad, it creates spaghetti code and multi thread mess.
But a big question is whether XAML+C# is better than XML+Java for android?
XAML is lot more sophisticated but it is hard to learn, there for only developers that had crossed over this barrier love it – but it is a big barrier.
XAML+C# is popular among organizations that can organize and afford courses and support for their programmers; and it limited for inside use.
The issue is that the market demand HTML for desktop and native for mobile and you cannot fight this.
Couple of multi-platforms tools tries to give a generic XAML+C# and compiles it to different platforms, but it is not an easy task, first of all the C# that you know is rely on .Net and iOS and Android don't support it, each one has a totally different framework. Farther more - those tools don't support HTML.
The Approach of my tool is to translate textual information to UI (like any Internet Browser can do) and to run the code behind at the server so it run with the latest .Net framework regardless the user device O/S – users can work native or HTML.
this is undoubtedly what we in the developers want
@Muhammad Touseef thumbs up...
Muhammad Touseef commented
@Marc Roussel, no it is not what Razor Engine does, it is an object that include controls, properties and code behind (like WPF or any other UI technology) but at run-time instead of creating an instance on the user device it creates the instance on the server.
I think some other platforms too transport platform agnostic UI "commands" and render those at the client-side with a custom platform-specific renderer. Probably Avalonia does so, don't remember where I had seen it some time ago
I see. Is it not what Razor Engine does at the back-end to render the view and the model which is sent to the client ?
@Marc, you are right and it is a shame that the industry did not adopt Silverlight as a standard.
From my reach experience I can assure you that nothing is event close to Silverlight or WPF.
I believe that the programmer job is to teach the computer what it should do in the most simple and clean way.
Silverlight (or WPF), Binding, XAML, BLEND and C# are the best set of tools that I know to develop a front-end,
But application is not front-end alone it has also backend - my goal was to find the best way to teach the computer what the whole application should do.
So, Silverlight (or WPF), Binding, XAML, BLEND and C# are good start, but instead of controls that run on the front-end and render graphics, I developed controls that run on the backend and render textual information that can be translated automatically to any platform.
Michael DePouw commented
Interesting related read about the MSFT client space: https://medium.com/@timsneath/new-beginnings-google-bf849766a497
Michael DePouw commented
"Why this is so hard to grasp?" couldn't agree more @Marc Roussel.
@Yoram Bucks I'm actually using MVC 5 with Razor view and I'm already developing with ASP.NET Core 2.0 and let me tell you that binding is rock solid with the technologies and extremely easy.
For everybody still reading. As a reminder, here's the real deal
1) BLEND or any kind of tool which can let us develop UI easily by placing controls on the design surface and bind it directly to our model RIGHT in the UI tool then as we all know in Silverlight we double click, or whichever event you need, you just go on the code behind and do your job.
2) ONE and ONLY one language C# should be used and not even a need to update a Proxy for client as this should be automatically done when we use the instances on the client side.
and please don't give us something which needs 10 to 20 different libraries out there which we Nuget all the time to achieve simple things like datepicker or globalization or whatever you can think of.
Why this is so hard to grasp ? I see many people trying to invent something which isn't the need
The need is to make the ONE tool and behind all this do whatever it takes to make it works on the web.
We are waiting for this ONE tool which we had with Silverlight. Right now I have to redo a huge project for a client which was in Silverlight and the best I have right is ASP.NET MVC 5/6 which requires 6 different syntax and a lot of work and attention not counting research on every single library to know why things aren't working the way it should just because a dependencies is missing or there's a bug present in the library. I don't need to explain how much all this is excruciating.
We don't even have a designer for Razor and the technology is there since a relatively long time. I'm speachless about that.
@mike with dotNetify you build your UI as HTML they give nice 2-Way data binding I find some similarity to Angular and to the binding idea of WPF.
My tool is completely different you build your UI with generic controls on the server, you can put data directly to the control.
Just imagine that you are working on a standard .net project on the backend and can use directly controls like TextBox, TextBlock Grid, Button, Camera, GPS – that simple.