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    Eugene shared this idea  ·   ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →

    We have read all of the comments on this thread and I’d like to thank you for providing your constructive feedback on this issue. Instead of merely repeating our support and migration guidance that has been laid out on http://msdn.com/vbrun, I’d like to address some of your specific comments here.

    To play back the feedback themes we’re hearing:
    - VB6 is awesome
    - VB6 needs to be brought forward and maintained: in a new release or OSS

    VB6 was and still is without a doubt awesome. VB6 made developers incredibly productive building a breadth of applications and as a result we have a wealth of applications and passionate developers to this day in 2014. One way I see our mission in developer tools is to empower developers to solve problems. This includes both today’s problems AND the problems of tomorrow. VB6, as you all have stated repeatedly in this thread, is an excellent tool for solving the problems of its day. We also stand behind our decision starting in 2002 to meet the current demands of our developers and the industry with .NET. For the scenarios VB6 set out to do, we see VB6 being “complete”. We feel good about VB6 being able to continue maintaining their applications for the past 15 years. Current needs ranging from distributed applications and services, to web applications and services, to devices, to new architectures and languages, required fundamental changes to the whole stack. We looked at how we could accommodate these needs through incremental changes to VB6 while maintaining its essence, and that was not possible.

    To address the modern needs we would need to go far beyond updating the language. We have to remember that VB6 is not just a language. VB6 is a language, a runtime, a platform library, a tool/IDE, and an ecosystem tightly packaged together in a way that made all of them work well together. We’ve worked with many customers on migration from VB6 to .NET and found that while yes, there are language changes, the dominating factor in migration difficulties isn’t the language differences. Even open sourcing the language/runtime wouldn’t solve the fact that VB6 was thought for a different set of problems, and the fact that its strength came from the end-to-end solution provided by all these five pieces working together. Take a change like 64bit, the complete runtime, tools and ecosystem chain would need to be retooled.

    So, moving forward what can we do? Where we have been able to help move forward is in our stance around support and interoperability. The VB6 runtime it is still a component of the Windows operating system and is a component shipped in Windows 8.1. It will be supported at least through 2024. This ensures your apps and components continue to run as you incrementally move forward to .NET. The support policy is here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/vstudio/ms788708. There are numerous interop strategies that we developed and evolved to enable incremental migration as you upgrade your skills, described here: http://msdn.com/vbrun.

    In summary, VB6 was awesome. We agree. We don’t expect or demand anyone to throw away their code or rewrite from any of our technologies unless it makes business sense for them to do so. We have to innovate to enable our customers to innovate. It is not a viable option to create a next version of VB6. We stand by our decision to make VB.NET and the .NET Framework. We think they are awesome too. It is not feasible to open source VB6 tools chain and ecosystem. The VB6 runtime was last shipped in Windows 8.1 and will be supported for the lifetime of Windows 8.1. Support and interop are great tools to move forward incrementally.

    I hope you feel we’ve listened to your feedback and that I’ve explained things well enough that you understand our decision.

    Paul Yuknewicz
    Group Program Manager
    Microsoft Visual Studio Cloud Tools

    8515 comments

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      • Ma cac pe Zagor commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Anonymous

        VB6 is a perfect language, perfectly constructed. The prof for that are the applications that behave perfect in any conditions.

        You definitely don't know anything of VB6, absolutely anything.

        Are you even a programmer? I bet that you are an amateur programmer at best.

      • Ma cac pe Zagor commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Anonymous aka zagor

        VB6 is a perfect language, perfectly constructed. The prof for that are the applications that behave perfect in any conditions.

        You definitely don't know anything of VB6, absolutely anything.

        Are you even a programmer? I bet that you are an amateur programmer at best.

      • Anonymous commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @MichaelE

        What you gonna do with a open source VB6? Many people say that VB6 is a mess under the hood, so no one can really make any use of it.

      • MichaelE commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        I'd like to thank all those for taking the time to come out of all the other forums and create posts here in the VB6 forum.

        Cheers!

      • George commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Antony Jennifer Zagor

        You are confusing VB6 with VB.Net. It's a mistake many people with little knowledge of programming make.

        If you look in the Stack Overflow 2018 survey you will see that VB.Net has fallen to #18.

        Add to that the fact C# has fallen from #4 most popular to #8 in just 1 year and you can see that .Net is dying.

        https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018#most-popular-technologies

      • Antony commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        The rise and fall of VB6

        VB6 has declined significantly. It's popularity has fallen back UNBELIEVABLY. VB6 has steadily declined in popularity since it's peak in 2002.

        Development is moving away from the bloated VB6 Spaghetti framework. It is really just legacy now. Looking at the graph VB6 has around 4 years left. It looks like VB6 will be dead by 2019/2020.

        Time for VB6 users to move to NET.

      • Zagor calls herself jennifer, Martha and RabidVB6ster and thinks she's a donkey farm commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Jennifer Martha Zagor

        If you had paid attention when I explained some math to you,and then asked a grown-up to explain it to you, you would know why your last post was mathematically incorrect.

        I gave you a simple example and asked you how many Rust (the most loved language in the survey) users responded. You still are incapable of answering that question.

        When you are able to answer that, you will realise what is wrong with your statement about VB6 and why the statement that C# has fallen in popularity to #8 is correct.

      • Martha commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        VB6 has lost huge popularity. Writing was on the wall. Almost 90% of millions of programmers elected VB6 as the most dreaded programming language of all times, according to Stack Overflow Survey 2016-2017-2018. This fact makes even this user voice request of bringing back VB6 finally obsolete. Also it seems that any code developed by VB6 will have zero chances to become a success.

        So finally retire your old donkey and get on the Porsche! Choose a modern platform like .NET or Java to get going.

      • LaughAllDay - www Donkey com - A New Donkey is on its way commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        The creation of a tool like VB6 was a very good lesson for the programming community and taught the programming world a good lesson that nobody should produce anything such as VB6 framework in the future. The reasons may be listed as follows:
        1- VB6 was a "patch-up" tool from the beginning. The VB6developers at Microsoft were trying to make everybody happy by adding patches here and there, sometimes quite in unorthodox ways. There has never been a top to bottom approach from the beginning. The big picture of the forest was never there. When someone wanted something new, they were planting some more exotic trees into that forest which become slowly but surely an uncontrollable ecosystem, namely a jungle. When they have created VB6, it was that moment, I believe, that things start getting out of control. There were so many unorthodox, unconventional hacks into the heart of windows APIs, that the VB6 ecosystem started cracking and the collapse would have been imminent, ETC...
        2-The other factor that the VB6 and C# ecosystem was doomed to fail sooner or later, was the fact that the entire windows structure was exposed to programmers through API hooks in dangerous ways. It was an unmanaged way of reaching to the heart of windows which could only worsen the entire operating system. There were OCX and third party vendors, which have mushroomed almost overnight, quite uncontrollable and able to do all kind of hacks without giving any thought about the consequences. Big companies producing important, mission critical code and informed programmers with vision could see that VB6 was sinking in it's own weight. Maintainability, expandability, creating standard coding practices was impossible. It was a dead end. That's why they were more than willing to jump back on the managed ecosystem that we call VB.NET today.
        So in short, it was a huge necessity to get rid of a flawed tool called VB ecosystem and design something properly engineered, which would live a long and healthy life.

      • Lofaday - www VB64 com - A new IDE is on its way commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @cha, "I would pay any reasonable price for an updated IDE"

        But would you? And how much and for what? www.0av.com (in Draft) is coming along quite well, but getting peple interested and openning their wallets to support it is proving very difficult indeed. At this time, none have actually looked at the IDE sandbox to my knowledge (mind you I haven't asked anyone here to look yet). With no funding and a mortgage, I am reduced to inputting what I can mainly for my own use. It's been a blast learning new languages as I make the transcompiler. By the way, the language is "Alum" but is 99% VB6 compat'. (to confuse trolls who see the word "basic" as a cue to a rant, unaware VB6 is "far from basic").

      • Lofaday - www VB64 com - A new IDE is on its way commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @George, Yessir :-)) Python is a great example of the car crash that software development has become. Have you seen Python on Windows? It's shambolic folder trees, off the root, with stuff strewn about, little logical structure etc. GUI components are DIY - not integral. On Linux I imagine it's worse, but the novice is screened off from it. Python just looks Heath Robinson to me. Like MS, the developers got lost and started re-writing with no backward compat', so you get 2 versions when you install, both still "live".... Cython takes ages and generates so much bloat, it's oft SLOWER. I use it reluctantly. It's easy for VB6ers and I like the multi-threading, but no way is it any good for a serious app. Banks probaby like it as they can employee 10c/hr programmers from 3rd world countries which is OK if all you want is to handle exchange rates and run periodic scans. I'm not running it down so much as just saying it's different, it is sophisticated, but it is just an interpreter, and it's all you can expect if you wish to pay nothing.

      • Retired Coder commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        It's nice that Spolsky thinks VB6 is wonderful but he's not going to find much agreement from the Stack Overflow crowd. My son told me a story about a friend of his who applied for what he thought was a C# job. They told him it was C#, interviewed and tested him about C#, and then hired him. The first day on the job they told him he'd really be working with VB.Net and legacy VB6 applications. He quit on the spot.

        He later found out that he wasn't the first developer they tried that on. The same thing happened every time. Visual Basic, any version of it, just doesn't get any love these days.

      • George commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        I see Antony Jennifer Zagor is copying and pasting again.

        She seems to think she is a donkey farm, I presume that is some third-world thing.

      • VB6DonkeyFarm commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        Visual Basic is not just a bad language -- it is a hideous jumble of traps and annoyances, a short step up from Intercal in usefulness.
        1. Awful declaration syntax and requirements. Variables must be declared but cannot be defined at the same time. Every interesting object is a "variant", which is a useless declaration.
        2. Prison-like development environment. I can't develop code that's not tied to a document somehow; I can't even put the code in source control except by copying the text out into a separate file, then copying it back in for use. I can't leave one routine partially written while I investigate something else, because the editor will go crazy.
        3. Active hostility to polymorphism. If I want a function to work for numbers, I have to make sure those numbers aren't wrapped in a 1x1 array (a variant!) because VB will not unwrap them for me. But I can't just test whether a function input is a variant, because that is too general.... there is no good solution to this.
        4. Complete lack of libraries. Methods that would be standardized in serious languages, or built directly into the language, are just missing. Where are my hash tables, deques, etc? Where are sort and unique and filter? Where is map? They are nowhere to be found, and I can't supply them except by loading documents over and over into the catastrophically bad IDE, see (2).
        Any of these would be a show-stopper for serious consideration of VB. (3) is the most painful to deal with, but I guess (4) is actually the most serious.

      • VB6DonkeyFarm commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        There will be no update and it would be ridiculous if so.
        I agree there are many applications developed in VB6 in the 90s. But it is not logical, practical or realistic to think that would be the norm in the future.
        Operating Systems are evolving and will not be held up by archaic code. It sounds harsh but it is a fact.
        Sorry

      • VB6DonkeyFarm commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        No one is going to use VB6 software. If it didn't happen 15 years ago, it won't happen now.
        The rules that applied then apply now. Companies do not pay to rewrite all their applications in the OLD and IRRELEVANT technology which does NOT function any longer.
        And VB6 applications generally run slower. It makes no sense.
        Only a developer living in an idealistic fantasy world thinks that and asked to bring back VB6.
        Some posters here have no knowledge or experience to understand why legacy applications SHOULD simply get rewritten in the latest and coolest technology, like NET. There are fundamental reasons why everyone is still talking about NET.
        Idealistic and simplistic notions of how organizations operate will not change that.

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