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    EugeneEugene shared this idea  ·   ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →

    We have read all of the comments on this thread and I’d like to thank you for providing your constructive feedback on this issue. Instead of merely repeating our support and migration guidance that has been laid out on http://msdn.com/vbrun, I’d like to address some of your specific comments here.

    To play back the feedback themes we’re hearing:
    - VB6 is awesome
    - VB6 needs to be brought forward and maintained: in a new release or OSS

    VB6 was and still is without a doubt awesome. VB6 made developers incredibly productive building a breadth of applications and as a result we have a wealth of applications and passionate developers to this day in 2014. One way I see our mission in developer tools is to empower developers to solve problems. This includes both today’s problems AND the problems of tomorrow. VB6, as you all have stated repeatedly in this thread, is an excellent tool for solving the problems of its day. We also stand behind our decision starting in 2002 to meet the current demands of our developers and the industry with .NET. For the scenarios VB6 set out to do, we see VB6 being “complete”. We feel good about VB6 being able to continue maintaining their applications for the past 15 years. Current needs ranging from distributed applications and services, to web applications and services, to devices, to new architectures and languages, required fundamental changes to the whole stack. We looked at how we could accommodate these needs through incremental changes to VB6 while maintaining its essence, and that was not possible.

    To address the modern needs we would need to go far beyond updating the language. We have to remember that VB6 is not just a language. VB6 is a language, a runtime, a platform library, a tool/IDE, and an ecosystem tightly packaged together in a way that made all of them work well together. We’ve worked with many customers on migration from VB6 to .NET and found that while yes, there are language changes, the dominating factor in migration difficulties isn’t the language differences. Even open sourcing the language/runtime wouldn’t solve the fact that VB6 was thought for a different set of problems, and the fact that its strength came from the end-to-end solution provided by all these five pieces working together. Take a change like 64bit, the complete runtime, tools and ecosystem chain would need to be retooled.

    So, moving forward what can we do? Where we have been able to help move forward is in our stance around support and interoperability. The VB6 runtime it is still a component of the Windows operating system and is a component shipped in Windows 8.1. It will be supported at least through 2024. This ensures your apps and components continue to run as you incrementally move forward to .NET. The support policy is here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/vstudio/ms788708. There are numerous interop strategies that we developed and evolved to enable incremental migration as you upgrade your skills, described here: http://msdn.com/vbrun.

    In summary, VB6 was awesome. We agree. We don’t expect or demand anyone to throw away their code or rewrite from any of our technologies unless it makes business sense for them to do so. We have to innovate to enable our customers to innovate. It is not a viable option to create a next version of VB6. We stand by our decision to make VB.NET and the .NET Framework. We think they are awesome too. It is not feasible to open source VB6 tools chain and ecosystem. The VB6 runtime was last shipped in Windows 8.1 and will be supported for the lifetime of Windows 8.1. Support and interop are great tools to move forward incrementally.

    I hope you feel we’ve listened to your feedback and that I’ve explained things well enough that you understand our decision.

    Paul Yuknewicz
    Group Program Manager
    Microsoft Visual Studio Cloud Tools

    7416 comments

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      • Richard CollierRichard Collier commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        Hi Arun,

        - iOS apps (iPad and iPhone) are mainly written in Swift (replacing Objective-C)

        - Android apps are based around Java.

        - With mobile development languages you may also need to select an IDE too (not all are 'built-in'). For Android that is usually either Android Studio or Eclipse. Swift uses its XCode IDE

        - Development is done on a desktop or laptop, not on the mobile device itself.

        You'll have noticed from what I have said so far, that you need to know 2 different languages - depending on what route you choose, that (fortunately) isn't necessarily so.

        While doing what I have outlined above will give excellent results, many of us need to be more pragmatic and only use one language for both Android and iOS.

        Even when deciding to have just one language there are 2 approaches -
        either write Native apps (apps which look almost identical to apps that could be developed using Swift or Java) or writing Web/Hybrid apps (apps which use the mobile's browser to run but have the ability to use the mobiles hardware specific features too). Google the difference between Native and Web/Hybrid apps to find out more.

        Of the products you mention:-

        - B4X creates Native apps. B4X generates apps for Android, iOS, desktops, servers etc. Be aware it is a group of products. For Android development you need the B4A programming language (the IDE is included), for iOS development you need the B4i programming language (again the IDE is included). Both languages are similar, you can copy and paste much of the code from one to the other. They are both based on classic Visual Basic.
        You do need to develop 2 versions of an app (for iOS and Android) on 2 different IDE's, but the language is very similar.

        - NSBasic creates Web/Hybrid apps. There is only 1 version of NSBasic, it allows you to develop web apps and mobile apps (that run on Android, iOS, and others). The NSBasic programming language is again based on classic Visual Basic (with a VB6 like IDE, and VB6 like controls). Rather than compiling to Native apps, NSBasic "compiles" to JavaScript (it uses HTML5 and Bootstrap but you don't need to know these). Your source code remains in Basic, you can copy and paste some VB6 code into it. Most VB6 controls have direct equivalents in NSBasic.

        - Another approach is to use Microsoft's Xamarin to build native Android and iOS apps. Unfortunately VB.Net can't be used with Xamarin, so you would have to learn C# too.

        What you should use to develop for mobiles depends on your requirements, I would suggest looking at both NSBasic and B4A/B4i.

      • ArunArun commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        I want to code for mobiles - mainly Android, also iPad and maybe iPhone.
        I know VB6 programming and have used some VB.Net.

        What should I use to develop for mobiles ?

        I ask the question here because of a post I see below mentioning NSBasic programming and B4X programming. Are these the way to go ? Or is there a better approach ?

        Advice please.

      • MichaelEMichaelE commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        >> Have you some sort of paranoia about VB6 ?

        You hit on something. If VB6 was not designed and marketed as an Enterprise software development solution it would not have been so HUGE.

        The reality is that some VB6 mission critical apps will outlive the careers of college graduates from this year. VB6 has some real juice to it. It is REALLY good at what it does. Light years ahead. It got so much right from the position of an app solution provider.

        It was not designed as a code elitest tool. Yet produces simple to complex rock solid applications faster than C# or C++.

        It is understandable why corp execs to .Net only developers troll it with such nonfactual based posts..

        Cheer to VB6!

      • VB6 ProgrammingVB6 Programming commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        You say " I am here to prove that VB6 cannot and will not be brought back. ".

        Is this a self-appointed task? Or are you acting for someone else ? I presume it is the former. It does seem rather futile. Why would you spend your time making hundreds (literally hundreds) of posts on this thread ? Have you some sort of paranoia about VB6 ?

        I honestly don't understand why you would waste your life with these posts. Have you no job ?
        Do you have any skills ? You seem to talk a lot about C#, VB6 and Xojo. Can't you find a job using one of those ?

      • VB6 ProgrammingVB6 Programming commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        Looking back, it seems to be you who does the repeat posting here.

        I can see at least a dozen postings of the 2017 Stack Overflow survey.

        And further back, plenty of other repeated posts. Your "To be honest with you, I have used and actually learned programming using VB6 in the 90s" seems to be a recurring theme, though I doubt it is true. Plenty of other repeat posts too, far too many to mention here.

      • VB6 ProgrammingVB6 Programming commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        As I said, you are the one who keeps posting here, not I.

        So you can't show posts I have made here previously.

        And you haven't answered my question "How many users does C# have ? And how few of them have actually paid for licenses? "

        No answers ?

      • Zagor TenayZagor Tenay commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @VB6 Programming

        It's obvious that Richard Collier and you are the one and the same person. One simple fact proves it. The moment R.C. stopped posting you took over and started posting instead. Weird. Normally R.C. waits in front of his computer to reply asap.
        But anyways, I won't play along with your trolling games. I am here to prove that VB6 cannot and will not be brought back. For the proof check out the link below.

        p.s.I am quite sure that R.C. will post his famous (and the same) 3 spam posts right after mine :D:D:D

        -----------------------------------------------------------
        STACKOVERFLOW DEVELOPER SURVEY RESULTS

        MOST DREADED LANGUAGES: VB6 IS THE FIRST!!!!

        For the second year in a row, Visual Basic (for 2017, Visual Basic 6, specifically) ranked as the most dreaded language. Most dreaded means that a high percentage of developers who are currently using the technology express no interest in continuing to do so.

        Visual Basic 6

        88.3%

        VBA

        80.4%

        CoffeeScript

        79.2%.........FOR THE REST ==>https://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dev-survey-2017&utm_content=em-features&utm_source=so-owned

      • VB6 ProgrammingVB6 Programming commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Zagor Tenay

        >> Well then why do you keep on posting here to bring back VB6?

        Actually it looks like you are the one who keeps on posting here.
        Perhaps you would like to point out any other posts I have made on this thread before today ?
        I can see hundreds of yours.

        NSBasic has sold over 1 million licenses. I see you haven't answered my question "How many users does C# have ? And how few of them have actually paid for licenses? "

        When I saw you say things like "Your company should really consider Xojo", I assumed you were promoting Xojo. I can't imagine what you would say about a language you are promoting.

        Which C# forums would you like me to post C# statistics in ? I have to confess I didn't know anything of C#'s decline until you got me to read Richard Collier's posts. It is quite impressive research by Richard on the sources you provided to him. I'm happy to spread the word of C#'s decline for you. Just give me a list of forums.

      • Zagor TenayZagor Tenay commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @VB6 Programming

        "VB6 "applications will continue to run in Windows indefinitely so a major part of the 'need' for a vb6 replacement has now disappeared."

        >Well then why do you keep on posting here to bring back VB6?

        "Xojo language which you now seem to be promoting"

        >I am not promoting Xojo. I just made a reference to the recent post here, which shows that Xojo is faster than VB6. IMO Xojo, B4J, NSBasic they all belong to the same group of toy tools. These platforms are not for professional programmers and will never be taken seriously by Enterprise Application developers (i.e real professionals working for the industry). Just try to submit a resume with exclusively Xojo+BJ4 and NSBasic experience. You will see what I mean.

        p.s.Why don't you post C# statistics in a C# forum. Seems like you don't impress anyone here. Just self flagellation.

      • VB6 ProgrammingVB6 Programming commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Zagor Tenay

        I have just checked what Richard Collier has been posting...

        He says "C# is declining according to the PYPL index (for India, US and Worldwide)".
        I have checked on PYPL. He is correct, it does say that, for all 3 regions.
        .............. Richard Collier 1 - Zagor Tenay 0

        He says - the Stack Overflow 2017 survey says "In the five years we've been collecting the Developer Survey, we've seen languages such as Python and Node.js grow in popularity, while the usage of languages like C# and C has been shrinking."
        I have checked on Stack Overflow. It took some finding but he is correct it does say that.
        .............. Richard Collier 2 - Zagor Tenay 0

        He says about the Tiobe index - "C# has fallen from 4th position to 5th position. The latest survey shows a continuation of C-sharp's 5 year decline."
        I have checked on Tiobe. He is correct it does say that. I must admit I hadn't realized just how much C# had fallen in the last 5 years. Devastating.
        .............. Richard Collier 3 - Zagor Tenay 0

        You may not like the facts, but C# is clearly declining.

      • VB6 ProgrammingVB6 Programming commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Zagor Tenay

        And you (presumably deliberately) ignore the main point:-

        VB6 "applications will continue to run in Windows indefinitely so a major part of the 'need' for a vb6 replacement has now disappeared."

        VB6 programming will continue in Windows until at least 2027 (assuming Windows lasts that long).

      • VB6 ProgrammingVB6 Programming commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Zagor Tenay

        Tiobe don't even measure either B4X or NSBasic. The Xojo language which you now seem to be promoting doesn't feature in the top 100.

        But NSBasic have over 1 million users who have PAID for licenses.
        How many users does C# have ? And how few of them have actually paid for licenses. Microsoft have to give C# and Visual Studio away now to get anyone to use it.

      • Zagor TenayZagor Tenay commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @VB6 Programming

        Yeah sure. That's why there are not even in the list of the most used programming languages. (Not even in the first 100. LOL).

      • Zagor TenayZagor Tenay commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Richard Collier

        Hmmm. Now you came up with PYPL index. A bit of progress but not enough. You should work harder. It is not enough. I want to see more efforts from you. We should convince people to leave C# and go back to VB6....But,but...what will we do if C# is searched more on the internet next month and C# goes up at Tiobe and VB6 goes down?? Never thought of it....;)

      • VB6 ProgrammingVB6 Programming commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Anonymous

        Good to see a reasoned post here, rather than some of the nonsense we have seen recently.

        Anywhere Software ( https://www.b4x.com/ ) have an excellent set of products - B4A for Android, B4i for iOS (iPad and iPhone), B4J for Java (Desktops) and B4R for Arduino. All are based around the Visual Basic language. You can even build http servers with B4J.

        Another product is NS BASIC ( https://www.nsbasic.com ). Again based on classic Visual Basic, NSBasic is VB6 for the web and for mobiles (Android and iOS). ActiveXs aren't supported, of course, but there are many similar controls included. You can use an inbuilt control, name it exactly the same as your ActiveX control, and copy and paste VB6 code into NSBasic.
        NSBasic has over 1 million users in over 70 countries (August 2016).

        Most important, though, is your statement "my applications will continue to run in Windows indefinitely so a major part of the 'need' for a vb6 replacement has now disappeared."
        And that is absolutely correct. VB6 programming never went away. It runs on Vista, on Windows 7, on Windows 8.x, and on Windows 10 too. And it runs on Windows Server 2012 and 2016.
        And it will continue to do so until at least 2027 (assuming Windows lasts that long).

        And with the new Windows 10 for ARM, VB6 applications will run ARM tablets too, as will the VB6 IDE.

      • Anonymous commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        I bought a copy of B4Android a few years ago and it was really simple to make an Android application with it. I confess though that I was only dabbling with it and never got around to testing its capabilities fully. But I've just read the comments by Zagor dissing it and I think he's being very unfair and that's why I'm commenting.
        If you look at the forums for the B4X range they are extremely active and have had 90K people take the trouble to sign up.
        What Erel has achieved is staggering to my eyes, he has practically every platform imaginable covered. If there was ever a guy I'd back to write an updated version of VB6 that could migrate existing projects, he'd be man!

        Unfortunately I think that ship has sailed a long time ago from a commercial perspective though. After years of angst I am relatively sure that my applications will continue to run in Windows indefinitely so a major part of the 'need' for a vb6 replacement has now disappeared.
        I'd still pay quite a lot for an upgraded version though!

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