Bring back Classic Visual Basic, an improved version of VB6
The silent majority of VB6 users did not ask for changes that came with .NET
We request Microsoft brings back classic Visual Basic as COM development is back with Windows 8.
David Platt wrote an excellent article about why classic VB still thrives:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/jj133828.aspx
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We have read all of the comments on this thread and I’d like to thank you for providing your constructive feedback on this issue. Instead of merely repeating our support and migration guidance that has been laid out on http://msdn.com/vbrun, I’d like to address some of your specific comments here.
To play back the feedback themes we’re hearing:
- VB6 is awesome
- VB6 needs to be brought forward and maintained: in a new release or OSS
VB6 was and still is without a doubt awesome. VB6 made developers incredibly productive building a breadth of applications and as a result we have a wealth of applications and passionate developers to this day in 2014. One way I see our mission in developer tools is to empower developers to solve problems. This includes both today’s problems AND the problems of tomorrow. VB6, as you all have stated repeatedly in this thread, is an excellent tool for solving the problems of its day. We also stand behind our decision starting in 2002 to meet the current demands of our developers and the industry with .NET. For the scenarios VB6 set out to do, we see VB6 being “complete”. We feel good about VB6 being able to continue maintaining their applications for the past 15 years. Current needs ranging from distributed applications and services, to web applications and services, to devices, to new architectures and languages, required fundamental changes to the whole stack. We looked at how we could accommodate these needs through incremental changes to VB6 while maintaining its essence, and that was not possible.
To address the modern needs we would need to go far beyond updating the language. We have to remember that VB6 is not just a language. VB6 is a language, a runtime, a platform library, a tool/IDE, and an ecosystem tightly packaged together in a way that made all of them work well together. We’ve worked with many customers on migration from VB6 to .NET and found that while yes, there are language changes, the dominating factor in migration difficulties isn’t the language differences. Even open sourcing the language/runtime wouldn’t solve the fact that VB6 was thought for a different set of problems, and the fact that its strength came from the end-to-end solution provided by all these five pieces working together. Take a change like 64bit, the complete runtime, tools and ecosystem chain would need to be retooled.
So, moving forward what can we do? Where we have been able to help move forward is in our stance around support and interoperability. The VB6 runtime it is still a component of the Windows operating system and is a component shipped in Windows 8.1. It will be supported at least through 2024. This ensures your apps and components continue to run as you incrementally move forward to .NET. The support policy is here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/vstudio/ms788708. There are numerous interop strategies that we developed and evolved to enable incremental migration as you upgrade your skills, described here: http://msdn.com/vbrun.
In summary, VB6 was awesome. We agree. We don’t expect or demand anyone to throw away their code or rewrite from any of our technologies unless it makes business sense for them to do so. We have to innovate to enable our customers to innovate. It is not a viable option to create a next version of VB6. We stand by our decision to make VB.NET and the .NET Framework. We think they are awesome too. It is not feasible to open source VB6 tools chain and ecosystem. The VB6 runtime was last shipped in Windows 8.1 and will be supported for the lifetime of Windows 8.1. Support and interop are great tools to move forward incrementally.
I hope you feel we’ve listened to your feedback and that I’ve explained things well enough that you understand our decision.
Paul Yuknewicz
Group Program Manager
Microsoft Visual Studio Cloud Tools
7182 comments
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.Net is failing
commented
Thanks for pointing out the 2017 Stack Overflow survey.
C# has fallen in popularity from 45% to 34% in just 5 years.
And Xamarin is one of the most dreaded technologies in the Stack Overflow survey.
The only really successful language Microsoft ever developed was classic VB, up to its best version ever - the VB6 programming language. They have never achieved the same success since.
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VB6 programming utilities
commented
@kontex
>> Is there an official VB6 support commitment for Server 2016?
>> I have already tested on server 2016 - runs flawlessly.Yes, there is. Microsoft have just announced the extension of support for VB6 to include Windows Server 2016.
"Support Statement for Visual Basic 6.0 on Windows Vista, Windows Server 2008, Windows 7, Windows 8 and Windows 8.1, Windows Server 2012, Windows 10, and Windows Server 2016"
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/articles/visual-basic/reference/vb6-supportVB6 continues on Windows 10 and Windows Server 2016 until at least 2025.
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VB6 programming utilities
commented
HOW TO INSTALL VB6 ON WINDOWS 7 and 10
Here is a utility to install the VB6 programming IDE on Windows 10 (and Windows 7 and 8), and on Windows Server 2016 and Windows Server 2012.
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Alan Hughes
commented
@Tom
>>Stupid comment of the day:-
>>Modern Agile type coding is possible only with modern languages like .NET.
Hey. Layoff the kid !
Many of us look forward to his pronouncements.
Funniest thing on this site :) -
Anonymous
commented
@Grant Swinger
Why would you be surprised ? All Microsoft's development tools for the last 15 years have failed to live up to Microsoft's hype.
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Grant Swinger
commented
Well, so much for Project Centennial as a savior of VB6.
https://www.petri.com/microsofts-project-centennial-unsuccessful
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MichaelE
commented
>>Modern Agile type coding is possible only with modern languages like .NET.
ROFL!
Yay for more posts on VB6 though!
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Tom
commented
Stupid comment of the day:-
>>Modern Agile type coding is possible only with modern languages like .NET.
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Tom
commented
@Zagor
Grant Swinger responded to your previous stupid comment about VB6 and spaghetti code as follows:-
>>Okay, since I'm waiting for this build to finish I'll waste a few more minutes on you.
>>First, spewing buzzwords you don't understand does not impress someone like me who's been developing with .NET since 2002. In fact, it doesn't impress anybody.
>>Second, the mission critical programs I wrote in VB6 have been running reliably for years. Maybe that's not your definition of "robust" but it sure fits my client's definition. That's why they keep giving me more business and recommending me to others.
>>Finally, any developer that requires a language to hold their hand and keep them from writing spaghetti code is incompetent. A good developer can write robust code in ANY language. I did it in VB6 and I do it today in C# and VB.NET. If you can't do it then you are incompetent. CASE CLOSED.
Just substitute your stupid comment about VB6 and Agile for your previous stupid comment about VB6 and spaghetti code, and Grant Swinger's post still applies.
One day you may even find out about Agile and/or spaghetti code. A sensible poster would have found out BEFORE posting about either.
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TJ
commented
@axisdj
>>WPF is a waste of time and is already obsolete. Won't run on Mac or Linux, or IOS, or Android. Waste of time.
Agreed. Even Microsoft seem to be coming round to that view.
VB.Net looks like re-emphasizing Windows Forms, though it is probably too late for that product.
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TJ
commented
@John
>>In the real world, the Agile Manifesto is more like this, just another layer of bureaucracy:-
>>Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
- and we have mandatory processes and tools to control how those individuals interact.>>Working software over comprehensive documentation
- as long as that software is comprehensively documented.>>Customer collaboration over contract negotiation
- within the boundaries of strict contracts, of course, and subject to rigorous change control.>>Responding to change over following a plan
- provided a detailed plan is in place to respond to the change, and it is followed precisely.>>That is, while the items on the left sound nice in theory, we’re an enterprise company, and there’s no way we’re letting go of the items on the right.
You are absolutely right, John. Agile is just another layer of bureaucracy we have to put up with.
It just causes further delay. The only people who like it are the useless programmers who can hide their incompetence.
But I guess some people would rather have repetitive meetings every day rather than actually achieve anything. And then do exactly the same thing the next day. And the day after that. And the next day. And so on for the rest of your career. -
Zagor Tenay
commented
NO AGILE CODING WITH VB6
Modern Agile type coding is possible only with modern languages like .NET. This may be one of the reasons why programmers overwhelmingly selected VB6 as the most hated language at Stackoverflow 2017 survey.
I don't see VB6 coming back any time soon.
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@Richard Collier
>>.Net is only suitable for on-premise legacy systems now. That is still a big, though declining, market.
>>.Net is in the same market as VB6 now, Windows desktop applications.>>But, as you have shown, if you are looking outside that marketplace you need to look beyond the .Net ghetto.
That's true. But few of us require Linux support *, unless it is on a server. Presumably axisdj has a requirement for Linux, in which case neither VB6 nor .Net would be suitable.
For most of us Web or Mobile are more likely paths away from Windows than Linux.
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* assuming, of course, 2017 isn't the year of Linux on the desktop (but then every year for the last 20 years was going to be the year of Linux and it hasn't happened yet).
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.Net is failing
commented
The 2017 Stack Overflow survey is very revealing...
C# has fallen in popularity from 45% to 34% in just 5 years.
It is astounding to see how far C# has fallen in the last few years.
C# was intended to compete with Java but was never successful in that.
It is unlikely that C# will still be a mainstream language in 5 years time.And Xamarin is one of the most dreaded technologies in the Stack Overflow survey.
Never successful as an independent business, Xamarin is now failing in Microsoft's ownership.The only really successful language Microsoft ever developed was classic VB, up to its best version ever - the VB6 programming language. They have never achieved the same success since.
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John
commented
In the real world, the Agile Manifesto is more like this, just another layer of bureaucracy:-
Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
- and we have mandatory processes and tools to control how those individuals interact.Working software over comprehensive documentation
- as long as that software is comprehensively documented.Customer collaboration over contract negotiation
- within the boundaries of strict contracts, of course, and subject to rigorous change control.Responding to change over following a plan
- provided a detailed plan is in place to respond to the change, and it is followed precisely.That is, while the items on the left sound nice in theory, we’re an enterprise company, and there’s no way we’re letting go of the items on the right.
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John
commented
@Anonymous
>> I can't take this Agile **** any longer. It's lunacy. It has all the hall marks of a religion. A lot of literature, a lot of disciples, hoards of money grabbing snake oil selling evangelists, and no evidence at all that it works.
>>The whole point of Agile was "people not processes" However because at my company we have professional scrum masters, everything must be religiously Agile.
This means that we must have a standup, everyday. we must have a retro, we must have planning.
almost half a day a week is lost to pointless meetings. I just want to get on with my job.I hear you, bro !
Agile just brings the barely competent coder up to a just acceptable standard, while dragging down better coders to almost the same level. And at the same time adds a further layer of bureaucracy.
I can understand why incompetent programmers like Agile, but capable programmers should avoid Agile if possible.
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Zagor Tenay
commented
.NET IS EXTREMELY POPULAR
"When you talk about popularity, you inherently assign a threshold at which something is "popular" however that is defined. Once a programming framework (or book, or song, or whatever) meets or exceeds that threshold, you will invariably have people who dislike it (aka "haters"). The more popular a thing becomes, the more haters it has; eventually, you might have a lot of haters, enough that it seems like they're a sizable portion of the total population."
".NET is popular; with popularity comes users, and with users come haters. Don't let the haters control how you view an entire slice of the development population; the vast majority of any popular thing's supporters are silent, content to do their work and go home. The vocal minority does not represent the silent majority, and we must remember that the loudest voice is not always the most popular opinion."
https://www.exceptionnotfound.net/popularity-breeds-haters-or-why-you-can-be-a-good-net-developer/
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Richard Collier
commented
@axisdj
.Net is only suitable for on-premise legacy systems now. That is still a big, though declining, market.
.Net is in the same market as VB6 now, Windows desktop applications.But, as you have shown, if you are looking outside that marketplace you need to look beyond the .Net ghetto.
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Richard Collier
commented
@axisdj
Delphi is very much in the classic VB style. It was launched back in 1995 as a competitor to VB3, but using Pascal rather than Basic as its language. There was even a Linux version back in 2001 but this was soon abandoned. A .Net version was launched in 2003 but this was never popular and was eventually dropped.
It is good to see Delphi continuing, at least the various owners had the good sense (most of the time) to retain much backward compatibility.
Good to see, too, that you chose not to move to the fading .Net. Microsoft will be pleased, it seems to be their intention to lose developers rather than produce products that developers require.
Now we see VB.Net being slowly sidelined by Microsoft and C# falling in popularity. You can be sure that when Microsoft do abandon .Net, Delphi and VB6 will still continue.
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Zagor's Mom
commented
I've told you already Zagor, stop playing on your computer. You know what happened last time, you were banned and had all your posts deleted.
No, you can't have another 5 minutes. CASE CLOSED.