Developers Win!Developers Win!

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  1. 35 votes
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      5 comments  ·  Visual Studio IDE » Cloud  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →
      Developers Win!Developers Win! shared this idea  · 
    • 7,896 votes
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        under review  ·  342 comments  ·  Visual Studio IDE » .NET  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →
        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        Thank you for your support, Phil. Please feel free to share this vote with as many of your friends as you can. This vote has recently passed 1,500 votes after 16 weeks of existence, and there is nothing but appreciation and respect for the support it has fostered so far. It is tied closely to another hot vote on Visual Studio's board and you are encouraged to support that as well:
        http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-2015/suggestions/8912350-bring-windows-10-universal-apps-to-android-and-ios

        These two votes along with five others currently account for over 22,600 votes which you can see in detail via a weekly report, the latest of which you can see here:
        http://blog.developers.win/2016/01/weekly-vote-report-for-friday-january-22-2016/

        You can indeed see (the now defunct) Silverlight 6 vote counted among the totals. Silverlight is considered to be an unsuccessful attempt at a ubiquitous .NET client application development model offering. To be more exact, it was an attempt to bring WPF into a browser window. The problem with the approach that was taken was that it required a plugin/install on the user's machine to successfully load and view it. This is considered unoptimal is users consider it invasive and cumbersome to have to install yet another program on their machine to do a simple task as viewing a web page. Correspondingly, you see this shift and expectation with the HTML5 web standards, where everything is done via JavaScript and HTML5.

        What separates this idea from Silverlight is that although they both allow a MSFT-designed (and therefore superior) client model to be rendered within a web browser, this approach suggests to *transpile* the client model and supporting artifacts into JavaScript and HTML5-compliant deliverables at the project's compile time, rather than requiring an inconvenient required plugin and/or install at load time when the page is initially loaded on the user's machine.

        By using this strategy, the model is the preserved as designed, and is output as 100% HTML5-compliant packaging that can be hosted on any web-accessible server. Consequently, since the client model is preserved as such (before any transpilation, that is), it can also be then compiled and packaged for other platforms, such as iOS, Droid, and of course Windows Store.

        That enables developers and organizations to use one code base to deploy to four (or more) platforms instead of these same organizations having to develop and maintain four code bases for four platforms (iOS, Droid, Windows, and web) as they are having to do now -- which is obviously incredibly expensive and prohibitive to do so.

        Hopefully that explains the difference to you and others who are engaged in this incredible dialogue that has been going on for about a quarter of a year now.

        Along such note, a moment should be taken here to give appreciation and respect to the Visual Studio team for its diligence and willingness towards enabling open dialogue here on this UserVoice forum. Even when there are critical comments towards Visual Studio and/or MSFT in posts or comments, they allow these comments to sit and exist as critical feedback. Unfortunately, this has not been the case in other MSFT UserVoice forums and has been greatly disappointing and obviously a hindrance towards any meaningful change/progress towards important ideals.

        This really goes to show the difference in management and philosophies between groups, and showcases why the Visual Studio group along with the Azure group represent the best that MSFT has to offer, and should be recognized as such.

        Thank you for your dedication to excellence and developer engagement, Visual Studio team!

        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        Hi Erich, thank you for the link. As you probably know, Xamarin doesn't allow for transpilation to HTML5/JavaScript/web artifacts, which is a fundamental ask for this idea/suggestion. As it stands, JavaScript and .NET are two incompatible languages, and developers/organizations are switching to nodejs as they can share code (saving money and time) between server and client for both web-hosted and native (via Cordova) development.

        This simply is not possible with .NET at the moment, which is what this idea/suggestion is precisely about. Your support around this idea is greatly appreciated! Thank you for the continued dialogue and thoughts.

        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        @Vili, indeed. Every attempt has been made at ensuring ".NET" and not "C#" has been said throughout the posted series and in the posted idea here, so F# (and any .NET existing language) support is indeed assumed and expected wherever C# is within this idea/suggestion. To be sure, code is expected to be written in .NET (C#/F#/VB.NET) and then transpiled into JavaScript seamlessly when needed for either debugging/development and/or deployment, and for on-demand for intensive computation as you are suggesting. This of course makes the most sense for web-hosted scenarios, as native/store-hosted scenarios would have the .NET code compiled into the native bytecode as applicable.

        Thank you for pointing that out... and for your support!

        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        @mala, thank you for sharing Eder's vote. It is great to see this idea and the idea you reference sitting at #1 and #2 hottest ideas in Visual Studio right now, respectively. Also, this idea crossed the 1,000 mark today, and that is nothing short of awesome and beyond any expectations when this vote was initially created short of 8 weeks ago. Combined with the related votes over in UWP's board, the demand for a ubiquitous .NET client application model is over 3,500 combined votes between the voting boards (you can view the weekly vote reports at the referenced link below in a previous comment).

        The support really has been amazing. A tremendous thank you goes out to all who have supported so far. This is far from done, however. A look at the top votes here @ Visual Studio board shows there are ideas with tens of thousands of votes rotting on the vine or "under review" with months (or years!) of time passed without an update. That should scare anyone wishing to make a vote on this board or who has hopes of having their idea heard here.

        By contrast, hopefully these two votes will start to generate some internal discussion there at MSFT and get some seriously disruptive, marketplace-dominating innovation going on again in the MSFT client application development space.

        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        @Marc Roussel, indeed,that is a piece of the puzzle. :) CSHTML5 satisfies a good number of the desired qualities of a ubiquitous .NET client application model. Primarily, it takes the desired and ultimately logical approach of transpiling .NET into HTML5-compliant artifacts. Unfortunately, it doesn't account for such critical features such as Portable Class Libraries or support shared/common assemblies for code reuse between application/server boundaries (cross-boundary accessibility). It also doesn't support a native-compiled workflow for store-hosted/native applications (more performant than JS). Nonetheless, it is on the right path and ultimately offers a more cost-effective approach/design than what we saw endorsed on stage by MSFT during Connect 2015 (traditional JS front-end on a .NET backend -- great for node.js, terrible for .NET).

        You can see more about CSHTML5's (and other models') alignment with the desired qualities here: http://blog.developers.win/2015/10/existing-net-client-application-models/#cshtml5

        Thank you for your support!

        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        Thank you for your feedback, Maxwell. Self-hosting ASP.NET has actually been in discussion:
        http://forums.dotnetfoundation.org/t/crazy-idea-run-asp-net5-on-android/1074/12

        The problem with this approach is that JS on the client and .NET on the backend are incompatible (cannot share code across boundaries), and therefore break DRY. More details here:
        http://blog.developers.win/2015/10/the-broken-burned-bridge/

        As you mention, nodejs works really well in this scenario, as JS can be shared between client and server boundaries, reducing development time (and therefore, cost). This is why developers and organizations are moving away from .NET and a solution like this idea suggests is necessary.

        This is all unless, of course, you mean bundle a browser that renders *transpiled .NET code as JavaScript* then of course that makes perfect sense. :)

        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        If anyone is interested, we are keeping track of this vote and others like it that aim for a ubiquitous .NET client application model. The first report can be found here:
        http://blog.developers.win/2015/11/weekly-vote-report-for-saturday-november-7-2015/

        Future weekly reports will be found here:
        http://blog.developers.win/category/weekly-vote-reports/

        As of today, the ubiquitous .NET client category has just over 3000 combined votes at 3013. Not bad. :) Please continue sharing this idea and make sure that our voices are heard!

        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        Good questions/points, David. There is no doubt progress being made (especially when compared to 5 years ago), but it is not as focused/clear as it could be. That is part of the vision/ask of this vote: to make a clear, innovative push that truly creates a powerful, authoritative .NET client application model for its developers.

        Roslyn is being used by Duoco.de for their transpiled solution. However, it doesn't account for PCLs (Portable Class Library) and other technical challenges. Mono does indeed support the platforms you mention, but not the web. For an idea of how this is important/significant, please see the following chart that demonstrates HTML5's ubiquity when compared against platforms (all figures guesstimated based on current Net Market Share data and MSFT's target goal of 1B Windows 10 installs by 2018):
        http://i0.wp.com/blog.developers.win/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/20150923021143.png

        Additionally (and more importantly from a business-perspective), MSFT is losing revenues to web developers as they are charging developers to access the Windows Store. Every web developer is another $19/$99 (developer/company) lost from a Windows Store perspective (not to mention fragmenting the .NET ecosystem even more between incompatible HTML5 and .NET client models).

        All the pieces are there for an innovative, powerful solution that preserves/strengthens .NET/MSFT brand and IP, all the while featuring a legitimate business to drive revenue for shareholders. It's just a matter of tying up all the pieces and making it work, while also generating some bucks for MSFT (as opposed to bleeding it via web developer attrition, as is the case now).

        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        Funny you should mention that, Koen. The original version of this vision/idea from over four years ago did account for BlackBerry: http://dotnetfuture.wufoo.com/forms/m1azjhyi1ozawho/

        In the current version/vision, that is denoted with the 8th and final item listing of "different, future platforms." Additionally, transpiled HTML5 client artifacts and packaging would satisfy this requirement as well.

        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        Thanks Eder! Together our two votes are over 1000 already. :)

        There is also another one in Windows Developers here: https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/110705-dev-platform/suggestions/7989744-make-universal-windows-platform-open-source-and-cr

        And here: https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/110705-dev-platform/suggestions/7897380-expand-enable-universal-windows-platform-to-transp

        Combined all of these votes are over 2,000 in total at the moment. Hopefully MSFT does take the time to consider and hear our voices at some point. Good luck with your vote as well!

        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        Thanks for your comment, Raymond. It would be nice to know more about what you mean. To be sure, the proposed suggestion here is to JavaScript, rather than TypeScript. In much the same way that TypeScript compiles (or transpiles) into JavaScript, the suggested solution here is to compile (or transpile) .NET languages/resources (C#/VB.NET/F#) into JavaScript. JSIL.org (which CSHTML5 -- a product that is referenced in one of the comments of your vote -- is based on) has been at this for years, and really a case should be made that it should be focus of (at least) an entire group within MSFT. In this process, deliverables/artifacts are created when the application is compiled/transpiled and made ready for deployment. The server is never involved except for its role in hosting these deliverables/artifacts so that they are available to any HTML5-compliant browser that requests them for the purposes of loading and displaying/rendering to the end user.

        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

        That's the idea, Mike. :) At least for web-based scenarios. That is what JSIL/CSHTML5 uses for their rendering, at least. You can see its support matrix here:
        http://caniuse.com/#search=webgl

        Thank you for your input!

        Developers Win!Developers Win! shared this idea  · 
      • 2,398 votes
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          33 comments  ·  Visual Studio IDE » .NET  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →
          Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

          If anyone is interested, this vote has been added and is being tracked with the Weekly Voting Reports on Developers Win. Along with 5 other votes that are related to creating a ubiquitous .NET client application model, it is responsible for a vote count totaling over 21,000 total votes at present.

          You can see this week's report here:
          http://blog.developers.win/2015/12/weekly-vote-report-for-saturday-december-19-2015/

          Future weekly reports will be found here:
          http://blog.developers.win/category/weekly-vote-reports/

          Please feel free to visit and share. Thank you for your consideration and support!

        • 143 votes
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            5 comments  ·  Visual Studio IDE » Languages - Other  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →
            Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

            If anyone is interested, this vote and others like it that aim for key improvements to Visual Studio are being tracked on Developers Win! The first report can be found here:
            http://blog.developers.win/2015/11/weekly-vote-report-for-saturday-november-7-2015/

            Future weekly reports will be found here:
            http://blog.developers.win/category/weekly-vote-reports/

            As of today, the Visual Studio Improvements category (where this vote is tracked) has 223 combined points. This report will be useful in seeing how many votes occurred over what period of time. Please continue sharing this idea and make sure that our voices are heard!

            Developers Win!Developers Win! shared this idea  · 
          • 113 votes
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              24 comments  ·  Visual Studio IDE » Languages - C#  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →
              Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

              If anyone is interested, this vote and others like it that aim for key improvements to Visual Studio are being tracked on Developers Win! The first report can be found here:
              http://blog.developers.win/2015/11/weekly-vote-report-for-saturday-november-7-2015/

              Future weekly reports will be found here:
              http://blog.developers.win/category/weekly-vote-reports/

              As of today, the Visual Studio Improvements category (where this vote is tracked) has 223 combined points. This report will be useful in seeing how many votes occurred over what period of time. Please continue sharing this idea and make sure that our voices are heard!

            • 508 votes
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                24 comments  ·  Visual Studio IDE » Project  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →
                Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

                If anyone is interested, this vote and others like it that aim for key improvements to Visual Studio are being tracked on Developers Win! The first report can be found here:
                http://blog.developers.win/2015/11/weekly-vote-report-for-saturday-november-7-2015/

                Future weekly reports will be found here:
                http://blog.developers.win/category/weekly-vote-reports/

                As of today, the Visual Studio Improvements category (where this vote is tracked) has 223 combined points. This report will be useful in seeing how many votes occurred over what period of time. Please continue sharing this idea and make sure that our voices are heard!

                Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

                FWIW, this vote is a featured vote on Developers Win! http://developers.win/visualstudio

              • 49 votes
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                  3 comments  ·  Visual Studio IDE » Version Control (Git/TFVC)  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →
                  Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

                  If anyone is interested, this vote and others like it that aim for key improvements to Visual Studio are being tracked on Developers Win! The first report can be found here:
                  http://blog.developers.win/2015/11/weekly-vote-report-for-saturday-november-7-2015/

                  Future weekly reports will be found here:
                  http://blog.developers.win/category/weekly-vote-reports/

                  As of today, the Visual Studio Improvements category (where this vote is tracked) has 223 combined points. This report will be useful in seeing how many votes occurred over what period of time. Please continue sharing this idea and make sure that our voices are heard!

                  Developers Win!Developers Win! shared this idea  · 
                • 36 votes
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                    12 comments  ·  Visual Studio IDE » IDE and Editor  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →
                    Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

                    If anyone is interested, this vote and others like it that aim for key improvements to Visual Studio are being tracked on Developers Win! The first report can be found here:
                    http://blog.developers.win/2015/11/weekly-vote-report-for-saturday-november-7-2015/

                    Future weekly reports will be found here:
                    http://blog.developers.win/category/weekly-vote-reports/

                    As of today, the Visual Studio Improvements category (where this vote is tracked) has 223 combined points. This report will be useful in seeing how many votes occurred over what period of time. Please continue sharing this idea and make sure that our voices are heard!

                  • 3,252 votes
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                      38 comments  ·  Visual Studio IDE » Mobile App Development  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →
                      Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

                      If anyone is interested, we are keeping track of this vote and others like it that aim for a ubiquitous .NET client application model. The first report can be found here:
                      http://blog.developers.win/2015/11/weekly-vote-report-for-saturday-november-7-2015/

                      Future weekly reports will be found here:
                      http://blog.developers.win/category/weekly-vote-reports/

                      As of today, the ubiquitous .NET client category (where this vote is tracked) has just over 3000 combined votes at 3013. Not bad. :) Please continue sharing this idea and make sure that our voices are heard!

                      Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

                      Obviously, native is important. However, web-hosted is equally as important if not more, as it is truly ubiquitous and runs on every modern device. For some perspective, consider the following chart that demonstrates what 1 billion Windows 10 installs (blue) would look like when compared to iOS/Droid, and then the ubiquity of HTML5 and the web (orange):
                      http://i0.wp.com/blog.developers.win/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/20150923021143.png

                      (all figures guesstimated, obviously, as are MSFT's for 1B by 2018)

                      If interested, the chart above is used as part of a bigger series for a ubiquitous .NET client application development model offering, which would satisfy these scenarios (and obviously this vote): http://blog.developers.win/2015/10/the-ubiquitous-bridge/

                    • 1,146 votes
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                        23 comments  ·  Visual Studio IDE » Windows Forms  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →
                        Developers Win!Developers Win! commented  · 

                        FWIW, a somewhat-related vote can be found here: http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/suggestions/10027638-create-a-ubiquitous-net-client-application-develo

                        Additionally, it is worth mentioning that this vote is mentioned in an article that outlines different .NET client application models and compares them to ubiquitous qualities. Specifically, it is referenced in the section covering Windows Forms and it can be found here:
                        http://blog.developers.win/2015/10/existing-net-client-application-models/#windows-forms

                        Conceivably, a ubiquitous .NET client application development model offering could reflect and support any .NET client application model -- existing or otherwise. It could start by providing UWP as the initial model, but could be extended to provide WPF as a model and even the Windows Forms model if the movement got ambitious enough. All with the purpose of enabling these models so that they can run in any hosted (native or web) environment.

                        Thank you for any support!

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